Comments on: My response to the incident at Dungerwadi http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi The definitive blog on Zarathushtrian Mysticism - Ilm-e-Khshnoom Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:29:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Mehernosh A. Patel http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi/comment-page-1#comment-11622 Mehernosh A. Patel Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:28:03 +0000 http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi#comment-11622 Good Day Dastuji Saheb, Well, I for one will be waiting............ Hamazor. Good Day Dastuji Saheb,

Well, I for one will be waiting…………

Hamazor.

]]> By: Jimmy Chinoy http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi/comment-page-1#comment-10793 Jimmy Chinoy Fri, 30 Apr 2010 13:38:01 +0000 http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi#comment-10793 It is indeed very wrong of Jal Balsara to have insulted the deceased, relatives of the deceased , Ervad bhesania of jokhi agiary and community in general. Just because he has performed 25000 paidust does NOT give him authority to hurt all related to deceased. Besides he is notorious in demanding his remuneration even before paidust and other 4 days ceremonies are completed, also requests for "ashodad" to enable him undertake foreign jaunts every year. I sincerely feel & appeal to BPP to throw him out of doongerwadi to set a n example to other dastoorjis if they are so insolent and powerful to hurt grieving relatives of the deceased, despite the acute shortage of dastoors at doongarwadi, especially during muktad days. Throw him out, such heartless dastoors. Jimmy N Chinoy It is indeed very wrong of Jal Balsara to have insulted

the deceased, relatives of the deceased , Ervad bhesania of jokhi agiary and community in general.

Just because he has performed 25000 paidust does NOT give him authority to hurt all related to deceased. Besides he is notorious in demanding his remuneration

even before paidust and other 4 days ceremonies are

completed, also requests for “ashodad” to enable him

undertake foreign jaunts every year. I sincerely feel

& appeal to BPP to throw him out of doongerwadi to

set a n example to other dastoorjis if they are so

insolent and powerful to hurt grieving relatives

of the deceased, despite the acute shortage of dastoors at doongarwadi, especially during muktad days.

Throw him out, such heartless dastoors.

Jimmy N Chinoy

]]> By: khursheed b irani http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi/comment-page-1#comment-10744 khursheed b irani Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:24:48 +0000 http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi#comment-10744 much as i agree with u marazban regarding the right way of praying etc. i beg to differ re er.jal balsara... i have observed every time that i have been to the doongerwadi that he is always arrogant and rude... no matter how stressed one is this sort of behaviour from a priest is most uncalled for...even on the farvandian parab day or during the irani new year where iranis go to do the prayers for their dead souls he is rude even when asked for an extra prayer book or diva... i personally think he should indeed apologise to the bereaved family and make sure that he is not rude to people who come to the doongerwadi under greater trauma and stress of having lost their beloved one... much as i agree with u marazban regarding the right way of praying etc. i beg to differ re er.jal balsara… i have observed every time that i have been to the doongerwadi that he is always arrogant and rude… no matter how stressed one is this sort of behaviour from a priest is most uncalled for…even on the farvandian parab day or during the irani new year where iranis go to do the prayers for their dead souls he is rude even when asked for an extra prayer book or diva… i personally think he should indeed apologise to the bereaved family and make sure that he is not rude to people who come to the doongerwadi under greater trauma and stress of having lost their beloved one…

]]> By: kfkeravala http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi/comment-page-1#comment-10729 kfkeravala Tue, 27 Apr 2010 04:44:34 +0000 http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi#comment-10729 Hope our Dasturjis and community leaders can see where the real problem is. We need many more bold Panthaky's and Mobed Sahebs like Ervad Jal Balsara, who can expose such frauds. No Mobeds No Parsis. Behest Behreh Firoz K Vaghchhipwalla, tamune Shreeji Paak Iranshah AtashBehram Saheb ni ane Sarosh Yazad ni Panah . Hope our Dasturjis and community leaders can see where the real problem is.

We need many more bold Panthaky’s and Mobed Sahebs like Ervad Jal Balsara, who can expose such frauds.

No Mobeds No Parsis.

Behest Behreh Firoz K Vaghchhipwalla, tamune Shreeji Paak Iranshah AtashBehram Saheb ni ane Sarosh Yazad ni Panah .

]]> By: Cavas Beramshaw Bacha http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi/comment-page-1#comment-10723 Cavas Beramshaw Bacha Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:15:44 +0000 http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi#comment-10723 Lets filter, cheating, stress, emotions etc. All these are diverting the main issue. In my opinion If Dadar Ahuramazda weighs this situation, between 1. A not so perfact Prayer & 2. Disrupting or breaking the Prayer, I am reasonably sure that Dadar Ahurmuzd will forgive the first i.e. not so perfect prayer & punish the second i.e. breaking the prayer. How many of us including learned Mobeds are perfect in Prayer? Frankly the Perfaction is dificult to measure or summerise, it can only be compared. Lets know from Dasturji Er. Jal Balsara, whether his every pronounciation, pause, or intensity of his prayer is honestly perfect according to his own opinion? If he genuinly wants to repent, he should take opon him to train such under devoloped Priest. Cavas Beramshaw Bacha April 26, 2010 Lets filter, cheating, stress, emotions etc. All these are diverting the main issue. In my opinion If Dadar Ahuramazda weighs this situation, between 1. A not so perfact Prayer & 2. Disrupting or breaking the Prayer, I am reasonably sure that Dadar Ahurmuzd will forgive the first i.e. not so perfect prayer & punish the second i.e. breaking the prayer. How many of us including learned Mobeds are perfect in Prayer? Frankly the Perfaction is dificult to measure or summerise, it can only be compared.
Lets know from Dasturji Er. Jal Balsara, whether his every pronounciation, pause, or intensity of his prayer is honestly perfect according to his own opinion? If he genuinly wants to repent, he should take opon him to train such under devoloped Priest.

Cavas Beramshaw Bacha April 26, 2010

]]> By: Roohinton Marolia Wi USA http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi/comment-page-1#comment-10712 Roohinton Marolia Wi USA Sun, 25 Apr 2010 00:56:25 +0000 http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi#comment-10712 A good and diplomatic explantion by Ervad Hathiram to diffuse tensions. I'm sure Ervad Bulsara is a very knowledgable individual in matters of prayer and our religious rites. But whatever happened to the most basic yet powerful concepts that constitute the fabric of our religion -- Good thoughts, Good words, Good deeds. One would think that the Ervad with his years of training and experience would have used these concepts to excercise some level of tolerance. A good and diplomatic explantion by Ervad Hathiram to diffuse tensions. I’m sure Ervad Bulsara is a very knowledgable individual in matters of prayer and our religious rites. But whatever happened to the most basic yet powerful concepts that constitute the fabric of our religion — Good thoughts, Good words, Good deeds. One would think that the Ervad with his years of training and experience would have used these concepts to excercise some level of tolerance.

]]> By: Minoo Vaghchhipawalla http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi/comment-page-1#comment-10701 Minoo Vaghchhipawalla Sat, 24 Apr 2010 04:28:40 +0000 http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi#comment-10701 As suggested, I have gone through your article. I would request you to try and find answers to some of the below mentioned points : 1. In what way we were involved that we should suffer this pain, as if the death of my brother was not enough ? 2. What would be your reaction, if you were to be in my place ? 3. To be honest, when I approached him in the office of the doongarwadi to enquire about this incident, his body lenguage gave a very distinct picture of a man full of arrogance, He showed no remose, did not feel sorry for his action. I asked him only one question as to why did he leave the geh sarna ceremony in the middle of prayers which was an insult to my dead brother. According to him, he preferred to leave geh sarna ceremony rather then continue with an incompetent colleague because if he has continued, (mare matha per pap na potla nathi laye jawa). He was talking as if the other priest was appoint by us. 4. When Mr. Jal Balsara is aware of the caliber of his colleague why did he apgree in the first place ? That was my question to which he never answered. Why did he do such an act in the middle of geh sarna ceremoney?. What does it indicate?, Whom he was trying to express his displeasure?. 5. Are not we all have emotion ? I am sure you too have emotion. What people seem to forget is that there is something called professional ethics, moral value. That day, I did not see these qualities in him. 6. Was he the only person stressed out on that day at Doongarwadi ? Did we go to celebrate the death of my brother at Doongarwadi? 7. We all work for living. There is nothing wrong in his earning by performaing priestly duties. If you have a desire to earn millions, then one has to work very hard, even 24 hours, which he seems to be doing, and I see nothing wrong in it. But in the process, if he gets stressed out, he should find other ways/place to vent his feelings why pick on helpless family members of the dead person ? 8. My question to those who felt that Jal Balsara was justified leaving the ceremony half-way,please give me the reference of the zoroastrian religious text which suggests that one can leave prayers half-way through, absuing the fellow colleague (since we are on a public forum, I cannot repeat the abusive words he used for his fellow colleague) if he finds that things are not in order ?. If they do not find such things in our religion text, then stop misleading public in general with your biased opinions and atleast have the decency to say that Mr. Jal Balsara was wrong in leaving the prayers half-way through, abusing his fellow colleague, even though he had the valid grounds for being angry with fellow dastur. Some people have this unique ability of classifying the opinions of those affected by this incident as "Emotional" and viewing the opinions expressed by those not affected by this incident (directly) as "Balanced", Let us not break our heads on this, ask ourselves a simple question. What can we do to stop such incident recurring again? Minoo K Vaghchhipawalla brother of the Late Mr. Phiroz K Vaghchhipawalla As suggested, I have gone through your article. I would request you to try and find answers to some of the below mentioned points :

1. In what way we were involved that we should suffer this pain, as if the death of my brother was not enough ?

2. What would be your reaction, if you were to be in my place ?

3. To be honest, when I approached him in the office of the doongarwadi to enquire about this incident, his body lenguage gave a very distinct picture of a man full of arrogance, He showed no remose, did not feel sorry for his action. I asked him only one question as to why did he leave the geh sarna ceremony in the middle of prayers which was an insult to my dead brother. According to him, he preferred to leave geh sarna ceremony rather then continue with an incompetent colleague because if he has continued, (mare matha per pap na potla nathi laye jawa). He was talking as if the other priest was appoint by us.

4. When Mr. Jal Balsara is aware of the caliber of his colleague why did he apgree in the first place ? That was my question to which he never answered. Why did he do such an act in the middle of geh sarna ceremoney?. What does it indicate?, Whom he was trying to express his displeasure?.

5. Are not we all have emotion ? I am sure you too have emotion. What people seem to forget is that there is something called professional ethics, moral value. That day, I did not see these qualities in him.

6. Was he the only person stressed out on that day at Doongarwadi ? Did we go to celebrate the death of my brother at Doongarwadi?

7. We all work for living. There is nothing wrong in his earning by performaing priestly duties. If you have a desire to earn millions, then one has to work very hard, even 24 hours, which he seems to be doing, and I see nothing wrong in it. But in the process, if he gets stressed out, he should find other ways/place to vent his feelings why pick on helpless family members of the dead person ?

8. My question to those who felt that Jal Balsara was justified leaving the ceremony half-way,please give me the reference of the zoroastrian religious text which suggests that one can leave prayers half-way through, absuing the fellow colleague (since we are on a public forum, I cannot repeat the abusive words he used for his fellow colleague) if he finds that things are not in order ?. If they do not find such things in our religion text, then stop misleading public in general with your biased opinions and atleast have the decency to say that Mr. Jal Balsara was wrong in leaving the prayers half-way through, abusing his fellow colleague, even though he had the valid grounds for being angry with fellow dastur.

Some people have this unique ability of classifying the opinions of those affected by this incident as “Emotional” and viewing the opinions expressed by those not affected by this incident (directly) as “Balanced”, Let us not break our heads on this, ask ourselves a simple question. What can we do to stop such incident recurring again?

Minoo K Vaghchhipawalla

brother of the Late Mr. Phiroz K Vaghchhipawalla

]]> By: Sheraz Bhesania http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi/comment-page-1#comment-10686 Sheraz Bhesania Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:37:05 +0000 http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi#comment-10686 Dear Ervad Saheb: It is the first time that I am reading this Blog and thank you for your wonderful explaination about this sad incident that took place during a very important ceremony of ours. Instead of giving solace to the grieving family,it made matters worse when Er.Balsara walked out in the middle in a huff. Could you please clarify for me what you mean when you say the "abilities" of Er. Karanjia in the Mobed circle are very well know. Is he a new young dasturji or an old gentleman who cannot recite his prayers as speedily as Er.Balsara. You are absolutely right in saying that if that was the case Er.Balsara should never have commenced the prayers with him. We left Bombay in 1967, but we did not leave our religion behind. My husband and I pray everyday and have our little prayer room with diva lit all day and night. I do believe that what we can pray personally at home for our dear departed ones, from our hearts and with true fervour far outweighs the hurried prayers recited at our Agiaries and Atashbehrams. I loved going to Agiary everyday and soon learnt that no dastoorjis prayed the full prayers from their hearts. Every time I went for my Grandma's prayers I would be told "Oh just put the loband the dastoorji just finished your prayers". And the most resonant sound would not be the dasturjis voice, but the Panthaky ringin his bell after 7 minutes of prayers. Complete or not the dasturji had to get up and move on to the next client. There must be very few honourable Dasturjis left now - but then it is their job & they have to listen to their bosses. I think if Er. Balsar wrote a few lines of apology and stopped being the Godfather of the Doongerwadi clan, it would help the family and many of us a lot. Unfortunately, we always don't have Dasturjis when we need them the most and so now we have a DVD made of our Paidast, Jashan and a few other prayers which we keep in reserve if the need should arise. Two times I have prayed Patet Rawan-ni as we were only 5 families with no dasturji . One was for a dear old gentleman and one was for a 16th month old baby. Once I prayed "Tandoorsti" for a lovely girl's wedding as she wanted Zoroastrian prayers and blessings. We have to adapt to change and move with the times. Ahuramazda is everywhere and listens to one and all who pray to him and talk with him. Thank you for a beautiful explaination. God Bless You. Sheraz Dear Ervad Saheb:
It is the first time that I am reading this Blog and thank you for your wonderful explaination about this sad incident that took place during a very important ceremony of ours. Instead of giving solace to the grieving family,it made matters worse when Er.Balsara walked out in the middle in a huff. Could you please clarify for me what you mean when you say the “abilities” of Er. Karanjia in the Mobed circle are very well know. Is he a new young dasturji or an old gentleman who cannot recite his prayers as speedily as Er.Balsara. You are absolutely right in saying that if that was the case Er.Balsara should never have commenced the prayers with him. We left Bombay in 1967, but we did not leave our religion behind. My husband and I pray everyday and have our little prayer room with diva lit all day and night. I do believe that what we can pray personally at home for our dear departed ones, from our hearts and with true fervour far outweighs the hurried prayers recited at our Agiaries and Atashbehrams.
I loved going to Agiary everyday and soon learnt that no dastoorjis prayed the full prayers from their hearts. Every time I went for my Grandma’s prayers I would be told “Oh just put the loband the dastoorji just finished your prayers”. And the most resonant sound would not be the dasturjis voice, but the Panthaky ringin his bell after 7 minutes of prayers. Complete or not the dasturji had to get up and move on to the next client. There must be very few honourable Dasturjis left now – but then it is their job & they have to listen to their bosses. I think if Er. Balsar wrote a few lines of apology and stopped being the Godfather of the Doongerwadi clan, it would help the family and many of us a lot. Unfortunately, we always don’t have Dasturjis when we need them the most and so now we have a DVD made of our Paidast, Jashan and a few other prayers which we keep in reserve if the need should arise. Two times I have prayed Patet Rawan-ni as we were only 5 families with no dasturji . One was for a dear old gentleman and one was for a 16th month old baby. Once I prayed “Tandoorsti” for a lovely girl’s wedding as she wanted Zoroastrian prayers and blessings. We have to adapt to change and move with the times. Ahuramazda is everywhere and listens to one and all who pray to him and talk with him.
Thank you for a beautiful explaination. God Bless You.
Sheraz

]]> By: Burjor Bharucha http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi/comment-page-1#comment-10680 Burjor Bharucha Fri, 23 Apr 2010 04:26:28 +0000 http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi#comment-10680 All said and done this whole episode could have been handled by Er. Balsara in a more discreet and humane manner without hurting the feelings of the bereaved family members. And what about the new mobed who is starting his career in a profession which most youngsters are unwilling to take. To what extent he must have been hurt and felt humiliated for no fault of his. This incident has put a blot on him for life. Firstly, if he was known to be not fully trained then he should not have been assigned such important prayers. Having been assigned Er. Balsara could have refused to commence the rites and demanded a more experienced mobed. And most certainly Er. Balsara cannot and should not have walked off in a huff without politely discussing and explanation the situation to the family and all others concerned. This would have difused the situation on the spot, enhanced the reputation of and respect for Er. Balsara in the eyes of the whole community. Its high time that the BPP who have always claimed to be the only controlling and managing body of the Dungerwadi sets up proper rules and systems so that anamolies like these and other wrong prevalent practices are not allowed to continue. All said and done this whole episode could have been handled by Er. Balsara in a more discreet and humane manner without hurting the feelings of the bereaved family members. And what about the new mobed who is starting his career in a profession which most youngsters are unwilling to take. To what extent he must have been hurt and felt humiliated for no fault of his. This incident has put a blot on him for life. Firstly, if he was known to be not fully trained then he should not have been assigned such important prayers. Having been assigned Er. Balsara could have refused to commence the rites and demanded a more experienced mobed. And most certainly Er. Balsara cannot and should not have walked off in a huff without politely discussing and explanation the situation to the family and all others concerned. This would have difused the situation on the spot, enhanced the reputation of and respect for Er. Balsara in the eyes of the whole community.
Its high time that the BPP who have always claimed to be the only controlling and managing body of the Dungerwadi sets up proper rules and systems so that anamolies like these and other wrong prevalent practices are not allowed to continue.

]]> By: Firoze Mistry http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi/comment-page-1#comment-10669 Firoze Mistry Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:48:29 +0000 http://www.frashogard.com/my-response-to-the-incident-at-dungerwadi#comment-10669 Dear Ervad saheb Thank you very much for your clarification, I completely agree with your views. I am a regular visitor to the Wadiaji Atash Behram, and a orthodox parsi by nature. During my visits I have seen several incidents where fellow zarthusties are reluctant to offer even Rs, 101 for performing the Machi prayers, however the same individual is willing to spend lakhs on a navjote or a wedding. I have also heard of cases where Mobeds have not been paid after performing the Navjote ceremony. Have we ever thought about how the mobed would feel? Are we sure Ahura Mazda would usher his blessings on such souls? I have also seen individuals where no matter what individuals refuse to switch of their mobile sets, even when the mobed is performing a prayer ceremony in the Atash Behram. In such a case how is the mobed suppose to react? Dear Ervad saheb

Thank you very much for your clarification, I completely agree with your views.

I am a regular visitor to the Wadiaji Atash Behram, and a orthodox parsi by nature. During my visits I have seen several incidents where fellow zarthusties are reluctant to offer even Rs, 101 for performing the Machi prayers, however the same individual is willing to spend lakhs on a navjote or a wedding. I have also heard of cases where Mobeds have not been paid after performing the Navjote ceremony. Have we ever thought about how the mobed would feel? Are we sure Ahura Mazda would usher his blessings on such souls?

I have also seen individuals where no matter what individuals refuse to switch of their mobile sets, even when the mobed is performing a prayer ceremony in the Atash Behram. In such a case how is the mobed suppose to react?

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